DISQUS

CZ · 5 months ago

kamododragon beat me to it with the comment about other world militaries and their stance on the subject.

The thing that cracks me up is the paranoia over berthing areas, do you really think every gay/lesbian/intersex is interested in you? That's a pretty strong ego then. Yes, there may be an isolated problem now and then but as mentioned no more than with fraternization between male/female at units (any old vets remember the 'Love Boat' Northland years?). I really doubt that you'd be of interest to someone of the homosexual persuasion if you're that worried about it. When I was single the last thing I wanted was a girlfriend that was also a coastie, keep work and home separate.

I've served and am friends with people who were closeted because of DADT, but they served with honor and it didn't affect their work conduct at all.

Nicky · 5 months ago

Just look at our NATO allies and our European Union allies. They have Gay's, lesbian and intersex people in their military service. They don't seem to have a problem and the only ones that do have a problem is the US military. I think that the US military should scrap DADT and allow gays, lesbian and intersex to serve openly.

I just think that people are paranoid about about gays, lesbian and intersex people serving with them and berthing with them in close quarters. These people just need to get their heads out of the sand and see the reality around them. Even for a couple of good examples, look at Canada, Norway and the Netherlands. They allow gays, lesbian and intersex people in and they also allow women to serve in all areas including ground combat jobs and on Submarines. Even in the IDF, US military's biggest allies, They allow gays, lesbian and intersex people in and they seem to work out fine.

Michelle Drake · 5 months ago

As a female who served on a couple of different WHEC's , it was obvious that some of my berthing mates were gay. They never bothered me.I feel the same way you do.If they do the job and got your six( no joke intended) then they deserve to serve! We are losing qualified Arabic speakers in the Army, as well as others who have served their country with honor and sacrifice just as we straight service members have. It's all that really matters. I don't think it would be quite the same as berthing male and females either.Less of a chance of anything happening actually...It's ll about being professional.

Brad Soule · 5 months ago

I concur with Michelle. The solution is not to look for a solution at all. The only thing that changes after DADT goes away is that you'll know who is already gay or lesbian in your unit... IF they feel like telling you even then. In the end, this is no one's business but the service members. It only stops being personal if it crosses the threshold into sexual harassment, which the CG has myriad rules and procedures in place to deal with. Israel, Britain, and Australia have already eliminated barriers to open service with no operational impact. It's time we do the same.

Also, if anyone feels strongly about this issue, I recommend checking out the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (www.sldn.org) for information on eliminating DADT and legal services for servicemembers investigated or harassed in violation of DADT.

robert bell · 5 months ago

Seems there is some common ground here so far. As for the berthing problem, if something was said or done out of line we already have policies in place to handle that (i.e. sexual harassment reports). I think that some education on this matter is the next step. Just because someone is homosexual doesn't mean that they are ogling every same sex person they come across.

A very important subject that I hope to see discussed in a very civil manner. Thanks for bringing it up.

michelledrake · 5 months ago

Thank you .As a straight female I never felt sexually threatened by shipmates I knew were gay. gays have served in the military as long as we and other countries have had Armies and Navies. Someone like Lt. Dan Choi whose platoon in Iraq as well as his fellow plt. leaders support him should not be kicked out because he is gay.He served on the line in Iraq and speaks fluent Arabic. If his soldiers support him and followed his leadership then whats is the problem? Bravery, sacrifice and dedication to this country are not exclusive.We need patriotic dedicated professionals more than ever!

Nicky · 5 months ago

Ryan,
I think it's time the US get in line with our military allies that do allow, gays, lesbian and intersex people to serve on Active duty, reserve and guard. If we look to our allies in Canada, UK, Israel, Australia, Spain, France, Norway, Dutch, Sweden and a host of other NATO countries. They allow Gays, Lesbian and intersex people to serve and they don't even have an issue with that. They have enough personal conduct rules in place including sexual harassment rules in place, that I would never see a problem with gays, lesbian and intersex people serving. Even some countries are letting women serve in all combat jobs including submarines as well. Even look at me, I could be the first intersex person in the Auxiliary and for that matter the US Coast Guard as well.

Guest · 5 months ago

Ryan Erickson · 5 months ago

There is a noticeable shift in our society, now we need to see if the government, particularly the military, can keep in step.

Nicky · 5 months ago

Hey Ryan,
I think that In due time, the military is going to have let Gays, lesbian and intersex people serve. The US Military is going to end up letting them, because look at our NATO allies and the ones that come to visit the US alot, they let their Gays, lesbian and intersex people serve in their military and more openly.

mrjacksonthomas · 5 months ago

Except in.....California....and many other states.

I would rephrase "there is a noticeable shift in the coverage in the media, now ill the government follow the media's lead."

California....the "most progressive" state in the United States, and what did they say about it. I don't believe the "shift" is as great as people make it out to be. I DO think that there has been a shift on the attacks of the people against such action, however.

.... · 5 months ago

I think that if they are qualified then they should be allowed to enlist regardless of their sexual orientation. If a few men feel uncomfortable serving with gays then they should start to think about how their female shipmates must be feeling when men are constantly harassing them and in many cases raping them. According to the VA 90% of Coast Guards females report sexual harassment and one in seven women in the CG report being raped.

Nicky · 5 months ago

I know, if men feel uncomfortable, with gays serving next to them, then they should ask if women feel uncomfortable next to them as well.

Sflowers · 5 months ago

I too have served aboard WHEC with folks who weren't straight. Didn't have an affect on me, or their ability to do their job, one way or another. I don't remember being uncomfortable sleeping in the same berthing area. I echo Jon's sentiment above:

'As long as we address this issue in a professional manner, rather than one based on fears, biases or emotions, this integration can happen and I believe our military and our country will be better off for it.'

I am curious about the anonymous comment above:

'According to the VA 90% of Coast Guards females report sexual harassment and one in seven women in the CG report being raped.'

I'm not sure that this is true (I'd be horrified at our service if it were true). Would like to know where this statistic comes from.

Joe Coastie · 5 months ago

Unless society is ready to forgo sex seperated restrooms and locker rooms, then the Armed Forces should not be required to go through this social experiment.

John Fiorentine · 5 months ago

Joe Coastie I don't understand your comment. Do you think that there aren't gay guys right now at your command? I been at 6 duty stations (3 ships and 3 shore) and there have been gays and lesbians at every single unit. They do their job the best they can and go home to their personal lives. I hope you don't think that if DADT is repealed the lockerroom is going to be some gay orgy. If DADT were repealed I still think many gays/lesbians are going behave as they alway have...keep their private life private.

Joe Coastie · 5 months ago

John,

I acknowledge there are already LGBT members in the CG.

However, our berthing areas, locker rooms, and restrooms also inherently discriminate based upon the assumption that everyone in heterosexual and not attracted to the same sex. Thus we keep them together when in closer quarters. This is inherently a discriminatory policy. I argue that if DADT is repealed, then we must also make all facilities unisex.

JC

Guest · 5 months ago

Joe Coastie · 5 months ago

Jon,

It appears you believe it is okay to discriminate based upon gender.

JC

Glucas · 5 months ago

Grasp at straws much? :P

SPsurfer27 · 5 months ago

Agreed...but good God, how are we going to break it to the straight guys in the locker room that "towel wars" in the shower is gay? Oh the irony.

michelledrake · 5 months ago

Right on! John Florentine. You are so right1

mrjacksonthomas · 5 months ago

There are a few issues here. The United States, much less the U.S. federal government is "out" on the subject. Sure, you see a pride parade and think "everyone is on board" but then you see voting in various states, including the most obvious California, and you realize this isn't one big push throughout the country.

My problem does not focus on the fact that it's about gays openly serving in the military....it's the fact that the U.S. federal government wants the U.S. military to be the test rat for an issue they have yet to resolve in the general population. On top of this, the "test" would happen while WE ARE AT WAR. That is the last time to "shake it up".

Have I worked with gays in the military? Yes. Are they still in? Sure, the ones I don't know about are, and the ones I found out about were kicked out. They were good people, good workers etc....

That is beside the point that the government needs to get its ducks in a row before they play Nutty Professor with the military in a time of war.

Nicky · 5 months ago

I just think that the best way to end Don't ask and Don't tell is to ask our NATO Allies how they integrated Gays, lesbian and intersex people into their military service and ask what problems or issues they had, if they had any issues or problems. I would look to Canada, UK, European Union and Israel as to what problems or issues they have or hard.

mrjacksonthomas · 5 months ago

There was a reason that "Don't Ask Don'T Tell" came about in the first place. I don't think it went far enough in any direction, and therefore did little more than keep people asking "what's right?"

While I understand it is important to learn from our international partners, I would caution people in saying "if NATO does it, so should we."

glucas · 5 months ago

Sounds like someone has a vested interest in the outcome (?)

"Sure, the ones I don't know about are, and the ones I found out about were kicked out. They were good people, good workers etc."

On one side there is good order and discipline. On the other there's the good book. When we carry our moral imperative to work on a Monday, after the sermon on Sunday, we don't really gauge how it affects others (or care). The afterlife consequence and the 'fisher of men' effect seems at the core of this discussion - not the real-life consequences.

mrjacksonthomas · 5 months ago

Just to clear up what I said...because now that I read it....I'm not sure if it is clear. I knew people were homosexuals because they were discharged for it. They weren't discharged because I knew (because I didn't know before).

One would hope that our moral imperative is not left at the door of church. Now, obviously each person's moral imperative is different.

The danger here is, making a military engage in a war less stable because you want to see how things will pan out, despite not addressing it in main stream culture (in an official way).

glucas · 5 months ago

Not sure what you mean about it not being addressed in mainstream culture. I don't know of a single company that can fire its employees for being gay outside of the military. Same goes for the gym, what gym establishes separate dressing rooms for those that are straight and gay?

When rational folks hear that argument it seems like there's some other concern. If that's the case, just say it.

If the government wanted a test, surely the CG would be the place to do that if we were worried about the impact on a wartime mission.

I don't really care either way. Repeal it or not (doesn't impact me - I'm neither gay nor on active duty). But I don't get the argument against it based on 'society's failure to deal with it officially'.

mrjacksonthomas · 5 months ago

If the government wants to test something, it should address it on the national stage, not with it's own uniformed supply of test mice.

I would also say there are very few other companies out there (obviously there are exceptions) that relay on "trust" to save lives of the employees.

Like other issues involving the military recently, it seems less attention has been paid to reality than lip service from last year. I wonder if they (the powers that be) have really considered EVERYTHING that needs to be considered. Will transgender be given the option of where male/female uniforms, will we have two male Marines dancing together at a dance despite not being able to marry in a majority of the states? What will the berthing situation be? What if everyone in a berthing area isn't comfortable with a homosexual living/showering/sleeping with them? What do we do about the possibility of relationships forming between same sex shipmates in the same berthing areas? Are we concerned about hate crimes? What will the impact be on a unit in which a shipmate has been lying to their comrades forever?

Are all of these going to be HUGE problems? Probably not, but they need to be looked at, with REAL answers, before Congress and the President put anything into action.

I would also say, there would be less of an impact on the U.S. Navy than Coast Guard as a test mouse. Larger crews, not as tight...

It will be interesting to say the least to see where it goes, but I wouldn't say that the U.S. have given the federal government marching orders to break this barrier down.

Nicky · 5 months ago

Well, if you ask our NATO Allies such as Canada, Spain, UK, The European union, Israel and other's on how successful they integrated Gays, lesbian and intersex people into their military service. I would think they never had any problems because they have enough rules, regulations and personal conduct laws on the books to cover what ever concerns they may have.

I just think that the US military is afraid and is living in fear because they did them same thing to the blacks in America and they are doing the same thing to gays, lesbian and intersex people as well. The US military as a whole is losing valuable talent and talent that came from gay, lesbian and intersex people.

I believe Spain and Thailand are the first two known military services that do allow open transgender to serve. Though, I would have to check on that because I don't know if it's true. I know the IDF is the first known military service to allow intersex people in and serve in all areas including front line combat. Also, I could be the first known intersex in the Auxiliary as well.

I believe the best way to deal with this, is to send teams to countries that do allow, gays, lesbian and intersex to serve openly and see first hand on how they do it and see if what they've done can be applied to the US military. I would also set up an independent panel that is independent from the white house, congress and the pentagon much like the GAO and the 9/11 commission.

mrjacksonthomas · 5 months ago

Don't get me started on the 9/11 commission.

And....no.

Ryan Erickson · 5 months ago

Check your eMail.

Nicky · 5 months ago

You might want to check out this article on repealing Don't ask Don't tell and see how other countries are doing. I saw this in Yahoo News and here's the link

Allies' stance cited in US gays-in-military debate
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090712/ap_on_re_us...

mrjacksonthomas · 5 months ago

I'll check out the article.

How many of these countries made this kind of change while involved in a war or two?

Nicky · 5 months ago

I believe it's one and that distinction goes to the state of Israel and the Israeli Defense forces. They made change while still involve with a war and on a war time footing. They made the change in 1993 and since then had no problems or issues whatsoever.

Here's the other article on MSNBC
Gays in military not an issue for many nations
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31878625/ns/us_news...

Guest · 5 months ago

DCStumpJumper · 5 months ago

Here's a crazy idea: How about if the military just learns to stay out of people's personal lives, unless it affects their ability to deliver results in their assigned mission?

This issue of sexual preference is only the tip of the iceberg. The military reaches way to far into the bedrooms (or wherever your prefer) of it's members.

I can't wait for the LONG OVERDUE rewrite of the UCMJ. Maybe we (servicemembers) can be closer to full-citizens again.

SPsurfer27 · 5 months ago

Do you think if DADT went away tomorrow all gays and lesbians who are currently in the military would immediately come out waving rainbow flags all over the place?

No, absolutely not.

They would probably just be completely excited for the fact that they can now sleep at night a little easier.

Here is the thing....what you do in the privacy in your own home or out of work should be kept private and the same goes for heterosexual men and women. You are not allowed to fraternize at work and you are supposed to keep a professional attitude at work and in uniform...therefore, gay, lesbian, straight or whatever should be upholding proper conduct you know?

And this continues into the whole berthing thing on cutters. If the policy passes to let gays and lesbians openly serve, which I hope it does, that doesn't mean that everyone is just going to come out to their coworkers and be like ha! I'm here!

I just think it is humorous that all of the conservative people who are worried about what it will do to military readiness forget that gay people aren't attracted to everyone they see. Some military members will be worried that they will be "checked out."

Please...don't be so vain.

I just feel it is ridiculous that people are kicked out because of sexual orientation and yet they are STELLAR workers and many heterosexual people are kept in the service but they are completely worthless....

I have seen my share of several Coasties who should have been kicked out a long time ago due to multiple alcohol incidents, crazy infractions...etc.

Honestly, it is just a matter of time. This is just my opinion. I think the Coast Guard is a lot more open-minded on this issue than many other branches. In other words, read some of the discussion board posts on this issue on Military.com. It makes me sick to hear some of the horrific things they say.

Alright, I will step off my soap box now. :D

Ryan Erickson · 5 months ago

Great dialog... Feel free to step back up on the box at any time.